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How to make sourdough bread...

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    Originally posted by Breadhead View Post
    [USER="8803"]Try this... Before taking your dough out of the autolyse vessel sprinkle part of the salt over the surface. Fold it over itself and sprinkle more salt on it. Fold it once more and add the remainder of the salt. Take the dough out of the vessel and start the slap and fold process.
    That's exactly how I do it (... great minds ...) except that I also use the Danish whisk to distribute it throughout the dough just prior to S&F to keep kosher salt off the counter, walls, and ceiling. I guess I could copy Ken Forkish and use fine sea salt instead of kosher because it apparently dissolves more quickly ...

    Comment


    • Breadhead
      Breadhead commented
      Editing a comment
      I use a Danish dough whisk too.πŸ‘ It's a really handy tool. Yes... On the fine Sea Salt.πŸ‘Œ

    • Potkettleblack
      Potkettleblack commented
      Editing a comment
      Taking coarse sea salt and blitzing it in the spice grinder produced a very nice, fine salt for me.

    • MBMorgan
      MBMorgan commented
      Editing a comment
      Guest - that's a good idea. Should work on kosher, too (NaCl is just NaCl). Thanks!
      Last edited by MBMorgan; August 30, 2016, 11:17 AM.

    I use the kosher salt, and put in after the shaggy mass 30 minute wait and just before the slap and fold. I really beat up the dough during the slap and fold. Creates quite the racket. Gentle at first, till the salt gets absorbed, then really beat the hell out of it. You will notice it change its character when working it. After the first couple of times, it becomes second nature.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Potkettleblack View Post
      Was wondering if you had comment on the tub fold method vs the slap and fold?

      http://youtu.be/CQHuWDEo3SA
      I like Ken Forkish' techniques. They're different than Chef Jacob's but their intent are exactly the same. I'm a huge fan of the slap and fold. It's the best kneading innovation in over 1000 years. I like its aggressiveness and it really gets the job done.

      i prefer Chef Jacob's stretch and fold over the bucket fold. It just seems easier and more organized to me the way I do it. After the bulk fermentation I take the dough out of my Pyrex mixing bowl and leave it on my work bench up until the point I final shape it and put it in the banneton. Between stretch & folds I just put the Pyrex mixing bowl over the top of the dough while it is resting.

      Obviously Mr Forkish's methods are proven to work really well. He is a great bread maker. I would try both and see which method works best for you. It's just a personal preference call I think.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Breadhead; August 30, 2016, 01:45 PM.

      Comment


        Catastrophic failure on delayed fermentation loaf. Looks great on the outside though.
        Attached Files

        Comment


          First 70% hydration loaf.
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • Breadhead
            Breadhead commented
            Editing a comment
            If this is the loaf you said had massive caves... I don't see any. The crumb on this loaf is perfect.

            I would suggest you give your tension pulls more concentration. You want as much tension on the final shaped dough as possible without tearing it. That will give you more oven spring.

            Nice loaf.πŸ‘Œ

          • Breadhead
            Breadhead commented
            Editing a comment
            I love your crust! Great color.πŸ‘

            I like my crust darker than you will find in the grocery store. In a DO I bake to color even if the IT of the crumb goes a little over 203Β°.

          I had one underproofed as well last night. It was midnight, it needed another hour, I wanted to go to sleep, see where this is going? I knew it, did not care. It looked great, massive oven spring from my grill/DO setup. But, the air pockets were not what I would have expected in a loaf that was done correctly. Quality control suffers when sleep is an issue. Wife wanted bread in the a.m., or I would have tossed in the fridge and finished this a.m. Tastes fantastic, but, a little dense. At least I knew what I did wrong, yet did it anyway.

          Comment


          • Breadhead
            Breadhead commented
            Editing a comment
            The great part of less that perfect sourdough bread is... It still tasted pretty good.πŸ‘ Dense bread is great for breakfast toast and sandwiches. The butter and jam or mayonnaise doesn't leak out of the holes on your chin and/or shirt.πŸ˜†

          I don't know if the massive caves in the delayed fermentation loaf are due to under or over proofing. Breadhead any thoughts? I did the poke test and it sprang back 1/2 way but was still cold to the touch.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Nathaniel Schmidt View Post
            I don't know if the massive caves in the delayed fermentation loaf are due to under or over proofing. Breadhead any thoughts? I did the poke test and it sprang back 1/2 way but was still cold to the touch.

            Nathaniel the poke test doesn't lie. I would have baked that loaf of bread if the dent sprang back half way too.

            The big holes are called "Mouse Holes." They're caused by not degassing big pockets/bubbles in the dough before forming. This leaves a couple large gas pockets that over-expand during proofing and oven spring.

            Normally degassing should happen naturally during the stretch & fold process after the bulk fermentation.. You don't really want to totally degass the dough when starting the stretch and folds but you do want to deflate any large air pockets. The stretch and folds are intended to inflate the dough some before final shaping & final proofing.
            Last edited by Breadhead; August 31, 2016, 01:50 PM.

            Comment


            • Gooner-que
              Gooner-que commented
              Editing a comment
              The oven spring was great, at least 2xs the height of the loaf that I put in the baking dish. I knew something was off when I checked the temp of the crumb and the tip of my thermometer came out a little doughy. I wouldn't think that there was much gas left in the dough with how tight I worked the tension pulls. The little blisters on the skin of the boule were great.

            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              Tip... Check the IT of your dough while it's still in your cooker. Sourdough is usually done at 203Β°. However it's still cooking when you pull it out. That's why you put it on the cooling rack to let it come to room temperature. I sometimes over shoot 203Β° a little because I like a darker crust.

            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              We know your dough wasn't over proofed because the dent sprang back half way. In my mind that means you had some mouse holes in the final shaped dough. They got bigger in final proofing and during the oven spring process. Just thinking out loud.

            Today's loaf for my son's NFL Fantasy Draft party.πŸ‘ I also made 2 pork butts and some red beans and rice.πŸ˜‹

            This is an overnight delayed fermentation loaf.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              4 curved cuts... It had good oven spring so the cap rose nicely.πŸ‘Œ

            • Thunder77
              Thunder77 commented
              Editing a comment
              Whooooeeee! I love it! 😎

            • RonB
              RonB commented
              Editing a comment
              A great looking boule Breadhead.

            Impressive!

            Comment


            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              With sourdough you never get 2 loaves that look alike. It's fun to play with different scoring patterns. If you get really good oven spring during the baking process you end up with some pretty loaves.πŸ‘

            Today's science experiment:

            60% Bread Flour + 40% Whole Wheat
            80% hydration
            Delayed Overnight Fermentation
            Entire cook at 475 F.
            Cooked to 203 F IT

            I'm beginning to suspect that, although altitude (I'm at 6300 ft.) doesn't have much of an effect on baking lean breads, it DOES appear to have a big effect on the rate at which they proof. I baked an earlier loaf that passed the proof test after just an hour out of the fridge. This loaf, I intentionally allowed to almost over proof ... and that took only about 90 minutes. So, I'm expecting a pretty dense, albeit tasty, crumb when I slice into it in a couple of hours.

            Click image for larger version

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            Oven spring was OK (not great) and it's a quite a bit flatter than usual (due to the over proofing) ... all exactly as planned and expected (that's something, anyway).

            Edit: Just gave it a try and, as expected, it is very dense, moist, and very tasty ... with a couple of relatively minor mouse holes due to the way I formed the loaf.

            Note to self: Must determine the effect of altitude on proofing and on rising (or lack thereof) during an overnight delayed fermentation in the fridge.
            Last edited by MBMorgan; September 4, 2016, 05:29 PM.

            Comment


            • RonB
              RonB commented
              Editing a comment
              That's a nice looking boule MBMorgan.

            • MBMorgan
              MBMorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              RonB - Thanks! It's actually pretty good with the DW's homemade hummus this evening.

            • RonB
              RonB commented
              Editing a comment
              MBMorgan - Dense can make great toast, or maybe some really good french toast.

            I'm almost there... 😎 This boule turned out pretty well, I thought. And it's gone, so I guess the family thought so too! I remembered to pre-heat the SS bowl this time. I got much better oven spring this time. Still need maybe a few more tension pulls. But the crust was crisp and crackly, and my crumb is starting to open up more. It had a delicious, slightly tangy flavor. I made a double recipe, and used half to make some rolls. Yum!

            Breadhead, this is the 66% dough you recommended, using Chef Jacob's technique.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Thunder77; September 4, 2016, 07:58 PM.

            Comment


            • RonB
              RonB commented
              Editing a comment
              Thunder77 - thems some great lookin' hunks o' bread.

            • MBMorgan
              MBMorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              Very nice ... congrats!

            • Thunder77
              Thunder77 commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks for your kind compliments! I really appreciate it.

            Originally posted by Mbmorgan View Post
            Today's science experiment:

            60% Bread Flour + 40% Whole Wheat
            80% hydration
            Delayed Overnight Fermentation
            Entire cook at 475 F.
            Cooked to 203 F IT

            I'm beginning to suspect that, although altitude (I'm at 6300 ft.) doesn't have much of an effect on baking lean breads, it DOES appear to have a big effect on the rate at which they proof. I baked an earlier loaf that passed the proof test after just an hour out of the fridge. This loaf, I intentionally allowed to almost over proof ... and that took only about 90 minutes. So, I'm expecting a pretty dense, albeit tasty, crumb when I slice into it in a couple of hours.


            Oven spring was OK (not great) and it's a quite a bit flatter than usual (due to the over proofing) ... all exactly as planned and expected (that's something, anyway).

            Edit: Just gave it a try and, as expected, it is very dense, moist, and very tasty ... with a couple of relatively minor mouse holes due to the way I formed the loaf.

            Note to self: Must determine the effect of altitude on proofing and on rising (or lack thereof) during an overnight delayed fermentation in the fridge.
            Sorry I didnt comment on your post earlier... Today was my son's NFL Fantasy draft party that he hosted at his house. He decided I should be the cook for his party.πŸ™ˆ I smoked pork butts, made red beans and rice, some chicken wings and a loaf of sourdough bread... I was busy.πŸ™„

            Nice recipe/formulation... For a beginner to attempt an 80% hydration dough is pushing the edge. Good on you!

            Longer proofing time caused by a higher altitude... Hmmm... I'm not sure it was higher elevation. Might it have been the high percentage of your flour content being WW flour? Remember 50% of the flour in your starter is WW flour too. So you were approaching 50% WW flour.

            You made the a wise decision to increase your hydration... WW flour consumes more water. I assume the loaf that passed the poke test in 1 hour was all bread flour, except the WW flour from your starter. This loaf was almost 50% WW flour. That's the only thing I can think of for the extended proofing time.πŸ€”

            WW bread is always denser than bread flour bread. The higher the WW flour % the denser it will get.

            Oven spring... Could be a combination of intentionally over proofing and the high WW flour content, plus final shaping. Hard to say.


            I like the way you're studying bread making. You're pushing the edge for a beginner. Tipping my hat to you MBMorgan πŸ‘
            Last edited by Breadhead; September 5, 2016, 02:49 AM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by jgjeske1 View Post
              I'm almost there... 😎 This boule turned out pretty well, I thought. And it's gone, so I guess the family thought so too! I remembered to pre-heat the SS bowl this time. I got much better oven spring this time. Still need maybe a few more tension pulls. But the crust was crisp and crackly, and my crumb is starting to open up more. It had a delicious, slightly tangy flavor. I made a double recipe, and used half to make some rolls. Yum!

              Breadhead, this is the 66% dough you recommended, using Chef Jacob's technique.
              Gone bread is good bread...πŸ‘Œ There's nothing more pleasing for a bread baker than to see others enjoying their loaves.πŸ‘ Baker's enjoy the art of creating beautiful tasty loaves, just to see if they can. Seeing others enjoy them just confirms they're work is worthwhile.

              I can see you're getting creative with your scoring/docking of your dough. The Mixing Bowl VS the Dutch Oven? Creative scoring potential makes it a no brainer for me.πŸ‘

              Tip... The left over flour on the crust of you loaf. When you drop your dough out of the banneton, before you score it, use a silicone brush to sweep the excess flour off of the dough that you used to allow it to not stick to the banneton.

              Oven spring... Notice your dinner rolls got better oven spring than your boule did. Reason? Final shaping! You got more tension on the rolls than the boule. I'll bet the crumb of the rolls were more open and airy than in the boule too. Tension on the final shaping effects the crumb as much as the spring, they are one in the same. More rise, the more open the crumb.

              Color of your crust... This is just me really, but I prefer a little darker crust. Sourdough requires a hotter baking temperature than most breads for one reason. The long proofing times gives the natural yeast more time to consume the natural sugar that is in all flour. The longer you proof your dough the more sugar is extracted from the dough. Sugar = caramelization, browning. I bake at 500Β° while the dough is under the bowl for 20 minutes, but after 15 minutes I turn the heat down to 450Β°. Then I remove the bowl and cook to color. If I go over 203Β° a little, no problem.

              A few more tension pulls... Here's what I look for during the tension pull process that is my final check. I want my dough to be so tight I'm worried about tearing the outer skin, plus I want some blisters on the skin. Those blisters tell me that the yeast is very active and that my final proofing is going to open the dough even more, that equates to maximum oven spring and an open crumb.

              Good loaf...πŸ‘

              Comment


              • Thunder77
                Thunder77 commented
                Editing a comment
                Thanks! That high praise indeed! Re: the higher temps, I can only get my oven to 475. As long as I have the crackly crust, I don't really like the super dark color. Just my personal preference. This one could have possibly been a little darker, I agree.

              • Breadhead
                Breadhead commented
                Editing a comment
                That really is a personal preference on my part too. Your's is certainly more traditional in color.πŸ‘

              Originally posted by Breadhead View Post

              Sorry I didnt comment on your post earlier... Today was my son's NFL Fantasy draft party that he hosted at his house. He decided I should be the cook for his party.πŸ™ˆ I smoked pork butts, made red beans and rice, some chicken wings and a loaf of sourdough bread... I was busy.πŸ™„

              Nice recipe/formulation... For a beginner to attempt an 80% hydration dough is pushing the edge. Good on you!

              Longer proofing time caused by a higher altitude... Hmmm... I'm not sure it was higher elevation. Might it have been the high percentage of your flour content being WW flour? Remember 50% of the flour in your starter is WW flour too. So you were approaching 50% WW flour.

              You made the a wise decision to increase your hydration... WW flour consumes more water. I assume the loaf that passed the poke test in 1 hour was all bread flour, except the WW flour from your starter. This loaf was almost 50% WW flour. That's the only thing I can think of for the extended proofing time.πŸ€”

              WW bread is always denser than bread flour bread. The higher the WW flour % the denser it will get.

              Oven spring... Could be a combination of intentionally over proofing and the high WW flour content, plus final shaping. Hard to say.

              I like the way you're studying bread making. You're pushing the edge for a beginner. Tipping my hat to you MBMorgan πŸ‘
              As always, thanks for the feedback ... it's not expected but it is always deeply appreciated. Glad to hear that the NFL fantasy draft party was a success.

              The recipe/formulation for this loaf was borrowed from Ken Forkish ... adapted by yours truly for using my poolish (he uses an 80% hydration levain) and for delayed overnight fermentation in the fridge. The 80% hydration dough was actually very easy to handle ... possibly because I decided to use his do-everything-in-a-tub method. Forkish prefers high-hydration doughs and his methods seem to be designed around that fact.

              This bake was designed to explore a couple of problems I've been having that seem to be altitude related:

              1. Rising/proofing rate - After more than a little sniffing around several sources of information, I've learned that at altitudes above 3000 ft., dough will rise/proof anywhere from 25% to 50% faster than at sea level. Since I'm above 6000 ft., I fall closer to the 50% number ... which means that dough will rise/proof in only about 2/3 the time that it will down at sea level.

              This latest loaf confirms those numbers ... so I'll write this particular mystery off as "Solved".

              2. Lack of rise overnight in the fridge - I'm not sure what's going on here. I used 10 grams of poolish in this loaf. Gluten structure formation was very good; the loaf was well formed; tension pulls seemed to be just fine.

              As with previous attempts at delayed overnight fermentation in the fridge, the loaf exhibited little or no expansion ... even after 20 - 22 hours. After I removed it (in the banneton) in an attempt to let it come up to room temp., it still showed no signs of wanting to rise (even at 85 deg. F). There was really no way to give it more time due to problem #1 (rising/proofing rate); it basically passed the poke test as soon as it was out of the cold.

              Next time, I'm going to try something that Forkish does. Like us, he uses a small amount of levain and lets his dough bulk ferment in the tub overnight ... but at room temperature rather than in the fridge. After 12-14 hours of bulk fermentation, he then forms his loaves and proofs them in a banneton until they pass the poke test, then bakes them.

              Based on the high-altitude accelerated rising/proofing rate here in Colorado, that means I'm going to be looking at roughly 8 - 10 hours of bulk fermentation so I need to figure out a schedule that allows for a good night's sleep. This may not solve the problem ... but it's worth a shot ...

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