Originally posted by Breadhead
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How to make sourdough bread...
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I use the kosher salt, and put in after the shaggy mass 30 minute wait and just before the slap and fold. I really beat up the dough during the slap and fold. Creates quite the racket. Gentle at first, till the salt gets absorbed, then really beat the hell out of it. You will notice it change its character when working it. After the first couple of times, it becomes second nature.
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Originally posted by Potkettleblack View PostWas wondering if you had comment on the tub fold method vs the slap and fold?
http://youtu.be/CQHuWDEo3SA
i prefer Chef Jacob's stretch and fold over the bucket fold. It just seems easier and more organized to me the way I do it. After the bulk fermentation I take the dough out of my Pyrex mixing bowl and leave it on my work bench up until the point I final shape it and put it in the banneton. Between stretch & folds I just put the Pyrex mixing bowl over the top of the dough while it is resting.
Obviously Mr Forkish's methods are proven to work really well. He is a great bread maker. I would try both and see which method works best for you. It's just a personal preference call I think.Last edited by Breadhead; August 30, 2016, 01:45 PM.
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Smokers / Grills- Weber 22" Original Kettle (black) modified for Party-Q
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If this is the loaf you said had massive caves... I don't see any. The crumb on this loaf is perfect.
I would suggest you give your tension pulls more concentration. You want as much tension on the final shaped dough as possible without tearing it. That will give you more oven spring.
Nice loaf.π
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I had one underproofed as well last night. It was midnight, it needed another hour, I wanted to go to sleep, see where this is going? I knew it, did not care. It looked great, massive oven spring from my grill/DO setup. But, the air pockets were not what I would have expected in a loaf that was done correctly. Quality control suffers when sleep is an issue. Wife wanted bread in the a.m., or I would have tossed in the fridge and finished this a.m. Tastes fantastic, but, a little dense. At least I knew what I did wrong, yet did it anyway.
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Nathaniel the poke test doesn't lie. I would have baked that loaf of bread if the dent sprang back half way too.
The big holes are called "Mouse Holes." They're caused by not degassing big pockets/bubbles in the dough before forming. This leaves a couple large gas pockets that over-expand during proofing and oven spring.
Normally degassing should happen naturally during the stretch & fold process after the bulk fermentation.. You don't really want to totally degass the dough when starting the stretch and folds but you do want to deflate any large air pockets. The stretch and folds are intended to inflate the dough some before final shaping & final proofing.Last edited by Breadhead; August 31, 2016, 01:50 PM.
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The oven spring was great, at least 2xs the height of the loaf that I put in the baking dish. I knew something was off when I checked the temp of the crumb and the tip of my thermometer came out a little doughy. I wouldn't think that there was much gas left in the dough with how tight I worked the tension pulls. The little blisters on the skin of the boule were great.
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Tip... Check the IT of your dough while it's still in your cooker. Sourdough is usually done at 203Β°. However it's still cooking when you pull it out. That's why you put it on the cooling rack to let it come to room temperature. I sometimes over shoot 203Β° a little because I like a darker crust.
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We know your dough wasn't over proofed because the dent sprang back half way. In my mind that means you had some mouse holes in the final shaped dough. They got bigger in final proofing and during the oven spring process. Just thinking out loud.
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> Weber Genesis EP-330
> Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker with Alpha/Connect
> Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
> WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative (I'll never see it again))
> Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
> Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
> Thermoworks Smoke
> 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
> Thermoworks Thermapen One
> Thermoworks Thermapen Classic
> Thermoworks Thermopop
> Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
> Anova sous vide circulator
> Searzall torch
> BBQ Guru Rib Ring
> WΓSTHOF, Dalstrong, and Buck knives
> Paprika App on Mac and iOS
Today's science experiment:
60% Bread Flour + 40% Whole Wheat
80% hydration
Delayed Overnight Fermentation
Entire cook at 475 F.
Cooked to 203 F IT
I'm beginning to suspect that, although altitude (I'm at 6300 ft.) doesn't have much of an effect on baking lean breads, it DOES appear to have a big effect on the rate at which they proof. I baked an earlier loaf that passed the proof test after just an hour out of the fridge. This loaf, I intentionally allowed to almost over proof ... and that took only about 90 minutes. So, I'm expecting a pretty dense, albeit tasty, crumb when I slice into it in a couple of hours.
Oven spring was OK (not great) and it's a quite a bit flatter than usual (due to the over proofing) ... all exactly as planned and expected (that's something, anyway).
Edit: Just gave it a try and, as expected, it is very dense, moist, and very tasty ... with a couple of relatively minor mouse holes due to the way I formed the loaf.
Note to self: Must determine the effect of altitude on proofing and on rising (or lack thereof) during an overnight delayed fermentation in the fridge.Last edited by MBMorgan; September 4, 2016, 05:29 PM.
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I'm almost there... π This boule turned out pretty well, I thought. And it's gone, so I guess the family thought so too! I remembered to pre-heat the SS bowl this time. I got much better oven spring this time. Still need maybe a few more tension pulls. But the crust was crisp and crackly, and my crumb is starting to open up more. It had a delicious, slightly tangy flavor. I made a double recipe, and used half to make some rolls. Yum!
Breadhead, this is the 66% dough you recommended, using Chef Jacob's technique.Last edited by Thunder77; September 4, 2016, 07:58 PM.
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Originally posted by Mbmorgan View PostToday's science experiment:
60% Bread Flour + 40% Whole Wheat
80% hydration
Delayed Overnight Fermentation
Entire cook at 475 F.
Cooked to 203 F IT
I'm beginning to suspect that, although altitude (I'm at 6300 ft.) doesn't have much of an effect on baking lean breads, it DOES appear to have a big effect on the rate at which they proof. I baked an earlier loaf that passed the proof test after just an hour out of the fridge. This loaf, I intentionally allowed to almost over proof ... and that took only about 90 minutes. So, I'm expecting a pretty dense, albeit tasty, crumb when I slice into it in a couple of hours.
Oven spring was OK (not great) and it's a quite a bit flatter than usual (due to the over proofing) ... all exactly as planned and expected (that's something, anyway).
Edit: Just gave it a try and, as expected, it is very dense, moist, and very tasty ... with a couple of relatively minor mouse holes due to the way I formed the loaf.
Note to self: Must determine the effect of altitude on proofing and on rising (or lack thereof) during an overnight delayed fermentation in the fridge.
Nice recipe/formulation... For a beginner to attempt an 80% hydration dough is pushing the edge. Good on you!
Longer proofing time caused by a higher altitude... Hmmm... I'm not sure it was higher elevation. Might it have been the high percentage of your flour content being WW flour? Remember 50% of the flour in your starter is WW flour too. So you were approaching 50% WW flour.
You made the a wise decision to increase your hydration... WW flour consumes more water. I assume the loaf that passed the poke test in 1 hour was all bread flour, except the WW flour from your starter. This loaf was almost 50% WW flour. That's the only thing I can think of for the extended proofing time.π€
WW bread is always denser than bread flour bread. The higher the WW flour % the denser it will get.
Oven spring... Could be a combination of intentionally over proofing and the high WW flour content, plus final shaping. Hard to say.
I like the way you're studying bread making. You're pushing the edge for a beginner. Tipping my hat to you MBMorgan πLast edited by Breadhead; September 5, 2016, 02:49 AM.
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Originally posted by jgjeske1 View PostI'm almost there... π This boule turned out pretty well, I thought. And it's gone, so I guess the family thought so too! I remembered to pre-heat the SS bowl this time. I got much better oven spring this time. Still need maybe a few more tension pulls. But the crust was crisp and crackly, and my crumb is starting to open up more. It had a delicious, slightly tangy flavor. I made a double recipe, and used half to make some rolls. Yum!
Breadhead, this is the 66% dough you recommended, using Chef Jacob's technique.
I can see you're getting creative with your scoring/docking of your dough. The Mixing Bowl VS the Dutch Oven? Creative scoring potential makes it a no brainer for me.π
Tip... The left over flour on the crust of you loaf. When you drop your dough out of the banneton, before you score it, use a silicone brush to sweep the excess flour off of the dough that you used to allow it to not stick to the banneton.
Oven spring... Notice your dinner rolls got better oven spring than your boule did. Reason? Final shaping! You got more tension on the rolls than the boule. I'll bet the crumb of the rolls were more open and airy than in the boule too. Tension on the final shaping effects the crumb as much as the spring, they are one in the same. More rise, the more open the crumb.
Color of your crust... This is just me really, but I prefer a little darker crust. Sourdough requires a hotter baking temperature than most breads for one reason. The long proofing times gives the natural yeast more time to consume the natural sugar that is in all flour. The longer you proof your dough the more sugar is extracted from the dough. Sugar = caramelization, browning. I bake at 500Β° while the dough is under the bowl for 20 minutes, but after 15 minutes I turn the heat down to 450Β°. Then I remove the bowl and cook to color. If I go over 203Β° a little, no problem.
A few more tension pulls... Here's what I look for during the tension pull process that is my final check. I want my dough to be so tight I'm worried about tearing the outer skin, plus I want some blisters on the skin. Those blisters tell me that the yeast is very active and that my final proofing is going to open the dough even more, that equates to maximum oven spring and an open crumb.
Good loaf...π
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Club Member
- Sep 2015
- 8064
- Colorado
-
> Weber Genesis EP-330
> Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker with Alpha/Connect
> Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
> WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative (I'll never see it again))
> Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
> Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
> Thermoworks Smoke
> 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
> Thermoworks Thermapen One
> Thermoworks Thermapen Classic
> Thermoworks Thermopop
> Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
> Anova sous vide circulator
> Searzall torch
> BBQ Guru Rib Ring
> WΓSTHOF, Dalstrong, and Buck knives
> Paprika App on Mac and iOS
Originally posted by Breadhead View Post
Sorry I didnt comment on your post earlier... Today was my son's NFL Fantasy draft party that he hosted at his house. He decided I should be the cook for his party.π I smoked pork butts, made red beans and rice, some chicken wings and a loaf of sourdough bread... I was busy.π
Nice recipe/formulation... For a beginner to attempt an 80% hydration dough is pushing the edge. Good on you!
Longer proofing time caused by a higher altitude... Hmmm... I'm not sure it was higher elevation. Might it have been the high percentage of your flour content being WW flour? Remember 50% of the flour in your starter is WW flour too. So you were approaching 50% WW flour.
You made the a wise decision to increase your hydration... WW flour consumes more water. I assume the loaf that passed the poke test in 1 hour was all bread flour, except the WW flour from your starter. This loaf was almost 50% WW flour. That's the only thing I can think of for the extended proofing time.π€
WW bread is always denser than bread flour bread. The higher the WW flour % the denser it will get.
Oven spring... Could be a combination of intentionally over proofing and the high WW flour content, plus final shaping. Hard to say.
I like the way you're studying bread making. You're pushing the edge for a beginner. Tipping my hat to you MBMorgan π
The recipe/formulation for this loaf was borrowed from Ken Forkish ... adapted by yours truly for using my poolish (he uses an 80% hydration levain) and for delayed overnight fermentation in the fridge. The 80% hydration dough was actually very easy to handle ... possibly because I decided to use his do-everything-in-a-tub method. Forkish prefers high-hydration doughs and his methods seem to be designed around that fact.
This bake was designed to explore a couple of problems I've been having that seem to be altitude related:
1. Rising/proofing rate - After more than a little sniffing around several sources of information, I've learned that at altitudes above 3000 ft., dough will rise/proof anywhere from 25% to 50% faster than at sea level. Since I'm above 6000 ft., I fall closer to the 50% number ... which means that dough will rise/proof in only about 2/3 the time that it will down at sea level.
This latest loaf confirms those numbers ... so I'll write this particular mystery off as "Solved".
2. Lack of rise overnight in the fridge - I'm not sure what's going on here. I used 10 grams of poolish in this loaf. Gluten structure formation was very good; the loaf was well formed; tension pulls seemed to be just fine.
As with previous attempts at delayed overnight fermentation in the fridge, the loaf exhibited little or no expansion ... even after 20 - 22 hours. After I removed it (in the banneton) in an attempt to let it come up to room temp., it still showed no signs of wanting to rise (even at 85 deg. F). There was really no way to give it more time due to problem #1 (rising/proofing rate); it basically passed the poke test as soon as it was out of the cold.
Next time, I'm going to try something that Forkish does. Like us, he uses a small amount of levain and lets his dough bulk ferment in the tub overnight ... but at room temperature rather than in the fridge. After 12-14 hours of bulk fermentation, he then forms his loaves and proofs them in a banneton until they pass the poke test, then bakes them.
Based on the high-altitude accelerated rising/proofing rate here in Colorado, that means I'm going to be looking at roughly 8 - 10 hours of bulk fermentation so I need to figure out a schedule that allows for a good night's sleep. This may not solve the problem ... but it's worth a shot ...
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