My Sourdough Starter Can Beat Up Your Sourdough Starter...

[Willy]

Alas, I’m not so sure that’s a good thing… My starter, Vinnie, ferments much faster than is typical, I suspect. Here’s the story. Sunday, I made two of the Stella Culinary sourdough boules, one right after the other (that is, as soon as the first loaf had autolyzed and been kneaded, I started the second one). For each loaf, I used only 400 grams of starter and made up the difference with 100 grams of fresh poolish to try and compensate for Vinnie’s hyperactivity. Because I am using all bread flour in the main recipe (still 50/50 WW and BF in the starter), I cut the hydration from the recommended 70% to 67% for loaf one and 65% for loaf two. After kneading the first loaf (I am using a Kitchen Aid with dough hook instead of slap and fold), I set it aside to rest for the prescribed two to four hours. Well, after an hour and a half, it had well more than doubled—to the point of over-rising A LOT. I immediately stuck the second loaf in the fridge, then did the three stretch and folds, plus the tension pulls on the first loaf, after which it went into the fridge in a floured banneton. Nonetheless it was at 150% in a half hour or so. I had already pre-heated the oven (a rare instance of thinking ahead), so in it went. It still had good lift and came out OK—see photos, loaf one is the flatter one. The second loaf slowed enough that it didn’t over-rise and it came out even better, my best loaf to date. Still, all in all, I had done two loaves from start to finish in less than six hours! The second loaf with 65% hydration was easy to form because it was not as sticky as all my other all 100% BF loaves have been. Today, after five days in the fridge, I fed Vinnie and, just 1.5 hours later, he passed the float test. BTW, the starter DID NOT pass the float for the two loaves I described and I am convinced that, once a vigorous starter is going, the float test is irrelevant. Indeed, I think in my case it is a disadvantage in terms of a lengthy ferment. From now on, all rising will take place in the fridge and I’ll cut back my starter to 250 grams for my next loaf.

Any thoughts/comments/recommendations/criticisms?

A quick recommendation: For $13, shipping included, you can buy a weight set to check your scale's calibration. I was quite pleased and surprised to find my scale dead on from 10 to 950 grams.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EIHQP1I/?tag=amazi0a8-20

[RonB]

Great looking boules Willy .

[Thunder77]

Those look really good to me!

[MBMorgan]

What's the altitude where you're baking, Willy? I'm in Colorado at 6300 ft. and experience very rapid rising and proofing (similar to what you're seeing) due to the lower atmospheric pressure here ... much faster than all the recipes suggest. I'm assuming that they are assuming that we're all at sea level ... but of course we aren't.

[Willy]

I'm at 4,760 feet. Interesting thought about elevation--thanks; it makes sense. I forgot to mention it in my OP, but, the first loaf was actually blowing very thin "bubble gum" bubbles in spots, bubbles about the size of a golf ball..

[Breadhead]

High altitude is like steroids for bread makers.👍. I'm at 22ft above sea level.

[Breadhead]

Woohoo... That big fat football loaf looks fantastic. Your final shaping on that loaf was excellent, nice scoring too.👍

I'm going to take by dog... "Da Boz" to the dog park for his evening exercise now, I'll comment more later.

Nice loaves Willy 👍

[MBMorgan]

"I'm at 4,760 feet. Interesting thought about elevation--thanks; it makes sense. I forgot to mention it in my OP, but, the first loaf was actually blowing very thin "bubble gum" bubbles in spots, bubbles about the size of a golf ball.."

Willy - Yeah ... my money is on your altitude causing the rapid rising. I've been conducting weekly "science experiments" by baking loaves in ways that might help me better understand the boundary conditions of rising and proofing at altitude (like intentionally exploring the limits of over and under proofing). What I've found is that for lean (including sourdough) breads, I don't need to change the recipe but I do need to watch out for shortened rising and proofing times ... e.g., if the recipe says to let it rise for 2-4 hrs, I usually see about 1.5 hrs. I see similarly accelerated proofing, too. I've tried retarding fermentation in the fridge but without much luck so far ... I see more "science experiments" in my future ... and just like BBQ, we still get to eat the mistakes ...

Nice looking boules by the way!

[Willy]

Science--the ONLY way to the truth!

[Breadhead]

Willy ...

Its fun playing with the hydration rate and using less starter. Try doing that same recipe using just 25 grams of your starter. Keep the flour at the same weight and use whatever hydration rate you want. Now that you understand the bakers percentage you can write your own formulas/recipes.

The float test is irrelevant for a mature starter...🙈. Once your starter reaches its peak on each feeding it starts to lose Co2 which is why it starts to collapse. Once enough Co2 is gone it will NOT rise your dough. If you stick to that theory you will eventually mix some dough that will not rise.😏 Its prudent to know your starters timing so you can use it at its absolute peak whenever possible. Using your starter when it failed the float test is a crap shoot... Maybe it will rise your dough and maybe it won't.🙄

[Willy]

I think that an active starter will produce tons of CO2 when it gets fed new food. As I see it, the CO2 contained in the starter is all "beaten" out of the new dough anyway by kneading or slap and fold. I'll continue my experimenting and will post on any failures.

[Breadhead]

You're correct... The Co2 gets deflated during the mixing process. The starter's state of productivity is what produces the new gasses required to rise the dough. If it is on the downward cycle it will cause a slow rise or no rise at all.

[Willy]

As I see it, every time we feed our starters, they are on the downward cycle and they respond vigorously to feeding, whether in just the starter or in a fresh dough? I think a well established starter is always in a state of sufficient activity to leaven a whole loaf or just more starter. IOW, the starter can't tell the difference.

[Willy]

Breadhead I hear ya. Still, my problem is that I'm going too fast, no low and slow for my Vinnie!. I'll keep experimenting and, if'n one day I hit an unrisen loaf, I'll post it here. Ain't got no pride when it comes to admitting cooking failures. LOL

[Willy]

Drat the 300 character limit! To me, using a "weak" starter (not too weak) seems no different than using a min amount of yeast, like the one gram amount for SC's Neapolitan pizza dough, which I LOVE Heat the oven to max, then turn on the broiler for a while and slap it to the stone. Magnifico!

[Breadhead]

At your altitude... Everything gets speeded up. That's great when you want to make a fast same day loaf. However delaying fermentation gets a little tricky too.

[Spinaker]

I don't know anything about bread or making bread. But those look damn good to me. Give me some butter and I would eat it all!

[Breadhead]

Spinaker ... You can't buy this type of bread in a supermarket. If you love bread this stuff would blow your mind. Especially if the baker took 2 days to make the loaf. Low yeast and slow fermentation (low & slow) works for bread just like it does for BBQ.😜

[Willy]

Go for it-you need another hobby to obsess over! LOL

Really, it isn't that hard OR time consuming. Listen to the Stella podcasts a few times, read the recipe, and go for it. As Breadhead says, it's much better than any loaf you can buy unless you live near a REAL bakery (not your local megamart!).

[Spinaker]

You clowns are doing this because you know I'll take the bait and jump in head first! Hahaha, just what I need. Breadhead Willy

[Willy]

MBMorgan Breadhead I've been pondering the altitude thing and, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me. I get that any individual CO2 bubble will expand more as the ambient pressure drops (I've seen bags of potato chips puff up as I drive up a mountain), but I can't get my head around the idea that the yeast/bacteria would actually consume sugars (food) at a greater rate as a function of altitude. I'm leaning towards the idea that Mbmorgan and I just have, coincidentally, varieties of bugs that are more active. The other somewhat comprehensible thought (to me) is that the bugs HAVEN'T consumed all of the available food (hence incomplete fermentation), but the CO2 they did produce makes it "look like" they did. Your thoughts? Having posted this, I'm off to Google the subject...

@Spinaker: C'mon take the bait! You'll be glad you did! LOL

[MBMorgan]

MBMorgan Breadhead I've been pondering the altitude thing and, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me. I get that any individual CO2 bubble will expand more as the ambient pressure drops (I've seen bags of potato chips puff up as I drive up a mountain), but I can't get my head around the idea that the yeast/bacteria would actually consume sugars (food) at a greater rate as a function of altitude. I'm leaning towards the idea that Mbmorgan and I just have, coincidentally, varieties of bugs that are more active. The other somewhat comprehensible thought (to me) is that the bugs HAVEN'T consumed all of the available food (hence incomplete fermentation), but the CO2 they did produce makes it "look like" they did. Your thoughts? Having posted this, I'm off to Google the subject...

Spinaker: C'mon take the bait! You'll be glad you did! LOL

You're correct that altitude won't affect the rate at which yeast/bacteria consume sugars. Instead, think of atmospheric pressure as a "weight" pressing on a dough ball that is trying to expand. At higher altitudes (lower atmos. press.), there is less "weight" pressing on the loaf and therefore it can expand more rapidly than at a lower altitude. The altitude/pressure issue is external to the loaf ... not internal to it ... just like your example of expanding potato chip bags.

Spinaker - you might as well cave now ... it's less embarrassing that way ... ...

[Breadhead]

Spinaker ... Think about having a matching/complementary hobbie to BBQ.

Bread making is similar to BBQ because it requires VERY little hands on effort but requires lots and lots of waiting for something to happen. I know you're an EXPERT at waiting.

Pork butt & brisket take 12/16 hours. A sourdough loaf of bread takes about 6 hours. Your bread will be done way before your meat is.👍 You've got a stick burner so I know you're not sleeping for those long lonely nights out by your cooker. May as well make some bread.😜

[Spinaker]

Hahahaha, SOLD!!!

[Breadhead]

Spinaker ...

Welcome to our sourdough bread club...👍

Here's what I'm going to predict... In 1 month you are going to say to our small group, I can't believe how easy this is!!!

Then you will say... Oh my god, this is a really cool thing to do while I wait for my looooong low and slows cooks to get done.😎

Then... Your friends and family will be absolutely perplexed about you not only being a Pit Master but an Artisan bread baker too.🙀

Trust me... Bread making is as fun as BBQ and you can do them simotaniously. Neither require much hands on time, just lots of waiting.😆

Plus you can bake it outdoors on your Broil King Keg... Probably better than in your kitchen oven.

[Willy]

Spinaker I hope you do try to do this bread making thing. Some advice from my recent experiences.

1) Do listen to the four Stella Culinary podcasts--a couple of times each, then as needed for reference.

2) It seemed that my starter, while very active and apparently not even experiencing "the stall", took forever (3+ weeks) to pass the float test. In retrospect, I am pretty certain that I waited too long after feeding to try the float test. After a week or so, try the float test within 2-3 hours after feeding. Keep trying!

3) Do get to "know" your starter--you understand this advice as you watch your starter over time.

4) Fairly early on, I decided to use 100% bread in the main recipe (I still use 50/50 BF and Whole Wheat in the poolish). This (I think) resulted in my needing to reduce the hydration rate, which I didn't catch onto for a while. I now use a 65% hydration rate and my dough is no longer too sticky to deal with. Conversely, you might need a tad more water.

5) Use a scale--weight NOT volume.

6) The 500°F baking temp discolored our expensive Le Creuset D.O. and the phenolic know can't handle 500°F. Don't buy a steel know to replace it as your burn the %&^^$#%&* out of your fingers when cooking with the lid on top of the stove. I like Breadhead 's idea of using a large stainless steel bowl with a pizza stone--photos in a nearby thread. Buy an inexpensive SS bowl set from Costco.

7) I don't bother with the slap and fold initial kneading--I use a Kitchen Aid with dough hook instead--but DO pay attention, per Breadhead's advice, to doing proper stretch and folds and tension pulls--see the video at SC.

ENJOY!!!

[Spinaker]

Thanks for all the information. Looking forward to a new cooking experience