Help needed with Italian Beef

[PBCDad]

Hi everyone,

I'm planning on serving 250 people in the very near future, and my plan has been to make Italian Beef sandwiches from the recipe on the free side. I bought a top round roast to test out my procedure, figure out weight loss due to cooking, amount of meat needed to make a good sandwich, etc. I'm really glad I did because I've learned a lot, but to be honest I haven't been thrilled with how the sandwiches come out. I'm thinking I'm doing something wrong, and hopefully it is a quick fix that will lead to awesome sandwiches.

Here is my process. 2.5lb roast, put on prescribed rub plus salt (not listed in recipe but I assume it is needed). Smoke in my offset at around 300, set over the "juice" until IT of 130. Take off, place in fridge for a couple days, save the juice in the fridge too. Take it out, slice on my new electric slicer very thin. When I want to eat, I heat up some juice pretty hot, drop some meat in there for maybe 30 seconds, take it out, place on hoagie roll (note Meathead says to use cheap high-gluten rolls, not sure how to tell gluten content), place sauteed green pepper, spoon juice over bread and meat, and eat. This follows the recipe as close as I am able to.

Here are my issues with it. First, the roll gets soggy and parts of it taste like uncooked dough. Second, the sliced meat, while plenty tender, doesn't have the texture I expect or want. Looking at the picture on the recipe, it seems like it should be some type of shredded beef. Third, the meat and the juice temp combined with the mass of bread resulted in a lukewarm sandwich. I won't be able to toast the bread at the event, so I'm not sure if this is a variable I can change. Finally, the sandwich overall lacks... flavor, greasiness, I'm not really sure. I've had Italian Beef a few times in Chicago, and even the one I had in the airport I remember as tasting better.

Last night, to mix it up (and because I was lazy), I made a simple sandwich with the cold meat, a slice of cheddar, and some Carolina BBQ sauce we had in the fridge. It was so good, it made me really wonder what I'm doing wrong with the Italian Beef. Should I just switch to homemade roast beef sandwiches, sort of an adaptation of the Baltimore Pit Beef?

Thank you in advance.

[Troutman]

I think where you are missing the boat is most Italian beef sandwiches I've had back in Chicago, the beef was literally soaking in the jus. When they load up your sandwich it pretty much is soaking wet, enough to get the sandwich good and moist. Other than that it sounds like you're doing it right, but I've never tried it so not sure other than soaking, what you're doing wrong.

Baltimore Pit Beef is an excellent second choice.

[PBCDad]

I think the texture of the meat comes into play here too, because I was expecting the same thing to happen, but nice slices don't hold onto much jus. I've had to spoon it on to get a good amount onto the bread.

[CaptainMike]

We do something similar with leftover tri tip, kind of a french dip. I'll make an au jus and soak the beef in it for a few minutes then serve on a sturdy sourdough roll with grilled peppers and onions. That reminds me, I need to get a TT out of the freezer....

[RonB]

How about switching to shredded beef? You can prepare the meat in advance and serve it in disposable trays set over steam.

[PBCDad]

RonB I suspect that would solve the temperature problem and give a lot more flavor, but I don't think it is meant to be. Part of the allure of doing these sandwiches for 250 people is that the meat doesn't lose a lot of weight and is a fairly quick cook. Pulled pork was shot down by my better half very early on in the planning; switching now to pulled beef is not an option.

Have many people tried making this recipe? Have you had success with it?

[BriggsBBQ]

I have never done Italian Beef personally. I did a roast beef out of bottom round based on a Cook's Illustrated magazine. The interesting thing they would do is cook with the oven at it's lowest temperature and even turn off the oven. The idea was for the residual heat to be similar to a sous vide method. So that you can get it medium rare and tender. Not will help at all with the Italian beef. I think Italian beef is basted and it does tend to make the sandwich pretty soggy. I had one at a Italian place by my house and they would use pretty thick French loafs.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm from Chicago and have lived in Seattle for 40 years. I recently made Italian beef for 70 people. Bought sirloin tip roasts at Costco. Brown thoroughly in olive oil, all sides, and set aside. I used my gas weber to avoid smelling up the house with the grease, using large dutch ovens and cast iron pans. This took over an hour, with two shifts of roasts. Then I lightly brown tons of chopped garlic, add beef broth and water to deglaze and pour into the largest pots, with liquid about â…” way up the side of the meat, lots of dried oregano , red pepper flakes, salt and ground black pepper. I then brought them inside and simmered for about 1 hour. You still want the meat to hold together for slicing, so it is not fall apart soft at this point. Remove meat from liquid, allow to cool, refrigerate. Then slice the cooled meat, and return it all to the liquid. You can heat it up before the meal, giving about an hour of simmering to finish cooking. However, Italian beef was a poor persons food for cheap cuts of meat, and the slicing and reheating allowed tougher cuts to be used.
The bread needs to be able to hold up to the liquid, and in Chicago it was Gonella Italian bread. Here in Seattle, I have found Ciabbata rolls work well. The wrong wheat gives you the flour paste you alluded to.
Finally, cut a ton of bell peppers (I like about 50% green, 50% red or yellow mix, but all green is just as delicious and less expensive. Costco business centers sell giant boxes of them). Toss with olive oil, salt and pepper, and roast on baking sheets or pans at about 425 for around 30 min. Can freeze and defrost day of event. Order bottles of hot giardianara from Vienna in Chicago https://www.viennabeef.com/shop/vien...iniera-4-pack/ (they ship it), or go to Potbelly Sandwiches in Seattle or Bellevue and they sell gallon containers. I once bought one, but couldn't use it up in a timely manner. You should call them first to confirm that they have and sell it. Feel free to contact me if you want more of my experience (a fellow Seattle resident.) This is not smoked, but is the real thing. My extended family craves these. Me too!

[PBCDad]

Wow, this is perfect! I'll send you a PM tomorrow when I have a bit of time.
So if I understand, the steps are to brown, braise, fridge, slice, simmer, serve?

[BriggsBBQ]

Great information. I know nothing about Italian Beef except a Italian place down the street does a great job. I would like to try this sometime.

[Dr. Pepper]

Yes. I can send you some links.
Daniel

[Nuke em]

Injecting it with beef broth works wonders. I’ve Also mixed mine with melted butter for the greasy flavor.
As for the bread. It took me about 20 trips to different bread stores to find the perfect bun that doesn’t get all soggy and fall apart after the first bite. Plan ole bread type hoagie buns just don’t work for for me. I never liked eating off my shirt
i also second the Baltimore pit beef... try it some time

[PBCDad]

Sounds like finding the right bread is a crucial step in the process. I still don't know how to tell if a bread is high-gluten or not. I have seen Ciabatta rolls in the store, but we've based our cost on a pretty cheap roll so I'll have to see what that does to our budget. If it is $5 for 8 of them, that more or less triples the cost of the bread.


Dr. Pepper I've been puzzling over your method and comparing it to Meathead's. In his recipe he does say that some places cook the meat in the jus like you've described (@Troutman I now also understand your comment), but he also warns strongly about soaking the cut meat for too long in the jus before serving - he says that more than a few minutes is a mortal sin (paraphrasing).

The other puzzle I've been trying to work out is the timeline. We are doing a lot of the food prep in the kitchen at my church in Kirkland, then driving it in to Downtown Seattle, setting up, then half hour later start serving. I'm not sure what they have available as far as kitchen equipment. So ideally, I would brown and cook all the meat ahead of time, slice at the church, heat everything up at the church, put it in my cambro (hoping it doesn't slosh too much on the drive), and keep warm until just before serving. The problem with that is that the meat stays in hot liquid for a long time - 2 to 3 hours. Is that okay or will it ruin it? If we have to heat everything up at the shelter where we are serving the sandwiches, that makes me real nervous about having to rely on unknown equipment.

Dr. Pepper I noticed you don't use bouillon cubes, you use beef broth and spices. Do you have quantities? Have you used bouillon? I'm thinking the cubes I got for my test were not very flavorful. I made Italian Beef a few years ago using the same recipe, and while I don't remember if I had these issues (I think I did), I definitely remember the jus being much more aromatic.

Nuke em I really like your suggestions to inject and mix butter into the jus, if I stick with Italian Beef I'm definitely doing both those things. What type of bread did you settle on?

[EdF]

As far as the bread goes, high gluten means it's going to hold together in the face of adversity (like juicy Italian beef). How about some kind of "hard roll" as they used to call them in my yout'? Should be hard to pull it apart, even when wet.

[CaptainMike]

EdF, did you say "yout"?

[EdF]

Almost had to when talking Italian Beef, CaptainMike !

[Nuke em]

The bread I use is from a local bread store where they make them fresh every day. You go inside and there is this huge bread machine and when they are done baking, the machine dumps them off onto a conveyor belt that goes to the back room. You stand at the conveyer belt and grab em as they go back. They call them snowflake buns. Here is a couple of pics of em with some of the sandwiches that I make


these pics were from my pulled pork,bourbon beans and smoked Mac and cheese
the bread is semi firm on the outside, not crunchy but doughy on the inside
they cost me 4 dollars a dozen. Next time I’m down at the bakery I’ll take a video of the place

[Dr. Pepper]

OK, I will follow with photos from my Italian beef cook. I am in awe of Meathead, but strongly disagree about not leaving the meat in the liquid. I froze the beef in large bags with the liquid, defrosted them with the liquid, heated them with the liquid. Delicious. The places in Chicago where we get our sandwiches do the same. (BTW, Chicagoans will argue about who makes the best Italian beef sandwiches!)
Also, why would I inject a meat that will be swimming in the most flavorful broth? And butter? There will be a lot of olive oil and some beef fat, which add all the flavor you need. I buy the boxes of low sodium beef broth, I have never used bouillon.

Now, in Chicago, when you go up to order a sandwich, it goes like this:
1. Worker: Grabs a roll, spread it a little
2. Grabs the tongs: 'Watcha want?, Beef or combo?' Combo means Italian beef with a Scala Italian sausage (I prefer my beef straight up.)
3. Me: 'Beef'
4. Worker: Tongs the meat from the broth into the bread 'You want peppers wit dat?'
5. Me: 'Yeah'
6. Worker: ''Sweet or hot?'
7. Me: 'Boat' Translation: 'Both sweet green peppers and hot giarinera'
8. Worker: Tongs the peppers onto the sandwich 'You want dat dipped?'
9. Me: Yeah
10: Worker dips the entire sandwich into the gravy, both ends, then puts on tissue paper and rolls it up. It sogs through the paper
11: Fries with dat?
12: Yeah, thanks

The problem with serving this to a large crowd of Kirkland churchgoers is teaching them how to order and eat an Italian beef. I buy Grand Central Ciabatta, admittedly expensive, and cut them in half, or serve open faced on a bowl and give a fork to help eat. Therefore ½ bun per person. Admittedly, this serving in a bowl is not traditional. But the taste and meat is the real thing. I grew up in a blue collar Italian suburb of Chicago (sometime last century!)

[PBCDad]

Awesome. Do you think it will be an issue to have the beef reheated in the liquid for a few hours?
Minor note, but we will be serving these at a homeless shelter and not giving many choices on how to order due to the quantity. I made a post earlier, I'll try to find it.

[Dr. Pepper]

First of all, good work, feeding those folks! Truly. And, no I don't think it will be an issue. The last two times my family (including grandkids, etc) had this, I defrosted packages I had made a couple months earlier, and put it in the dutch oven on stovetop to simmer. I think it was a couple of hours until we all settled down to eat. Still delicious.

[Dr. Pepper]

The Raw meat photo is at the bottom. The vacuum bag for freezing is also near the bottom (I sealed the bag, but did not apply suction due to the liquid)
Daniel

[PBCDad]

Wow, that looks amazing! How much meat did you get for 70 people? My plan was 3oz per sandwich, so around 60lb uncooked meat for 250

[CaptainMike]

id eet dat!

[Dr. Pepper]

Well, the photos show two Costco vacuum bagged (got them at the Lynwood business Costco) Beef Loin Top Sirloin, about 14 lbs per. So, about 30 lbs. And we heaped huge portions. So, I think 60 lbs should be good. With 4 portions per uncooked lb would serve about 250 folks. It breaks up, but doesn't matter. Just scoop it up. I use tongs and ladles.

[Dr. Pepper]

Links:

http://italianbeef.com/recipes/

Meathead's article, with a great photo of a completed sandwich:

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/beef-and-bison-recipes/chicago-italian-beef-sandwich-recipe

I don't like the way this meat looks, but worth looking at the recipe;

https://www.thrillist.com/recipe/chicago/how-to-make-al-s-italian-beef-thrillist-recipes

This cook cheats big time, but I like the photo of a completed sandwich from Johnny's, a famous spot in what's left (not much) of Chicago's little Italy.

https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/05/how-to-make-chicago-style-italian-beef-at-home-sandwich-recipe.html

[Dr. Pepper]

Oh, and kids won't like the hot giardinera. (I keep spelling it differently!) They also sell mild, and the green peppers are sufficient as well. But, I must have the hot giardinera, and prefer the Vienna or what PotBelly serves (it may be Vienna, I don't remember.)