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Recipe Formats - Too Wordy???

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    #16
    So a word about "fluff". One man's fluff is another's essential. The debate erupted over this recipe.
    https://amazingribs.com/tested-recip...eat-variations

    The headnote (that is what recipe writers call the info above the recipe) often contains vital info. This headnote is about 400 words. Not very long so I don't see what all the fuss was about. OTHER recipes that I wrote long ago had a LOT larger headnotes. That's because, to me, food is culture and I am fascinated by where a recipe comes from, the history, ethnicity, and I like story telling. My guess is that people who call it fluff don't have time to read novels or poetry or history. They are all business. Some of us want to know the backstory.

    I have looked at every word in that biscuit headnote and if I was Draconian I might be able to remove 75 words. But facts like these belong in a headnote to help the cook before you start cooking, especially if comparing to other recipes. Here are 345 words trimmed down. I maintain with great commitment and vigor that all this info should come before you reach for ingredients.

    -------------------
    they are forgiving.
    they can be baked on a grill with indirect heat!
    Biscuits are a rustic bread, leavened by chemistry not by fermentation.
    There are many recipes out there with countless variations on the ingredients and techniques, and not surprisingly, controversy and nonsense abound over how to make them. Should you use cake flour? All purpose flour? Both? Butter? Lard? Shortening? Bacon fat? Buttermilk? Whole milk? Yogurt? Should they be flaky or fluffy? Can you use a food processor or your hands only? Can you use a rolling pin or your hands only? Knead or not knead? Fold the dough or not? Chill before cutting? Here is the basic recipe, all you need to know, and a few options.
    I have discovered that, unlike some other baked goods, there is a fair amount of flexibility in the recipe. If you use a bit too much flour, milk, or butter, it's not the end of the world. Just don't stray too far on the baking soda, baking powder, or salt. Too much of these can send the biscuits to the waste can.
    Biscuits come in different shapes: Drop biscuits are amorphous blobs usually made from very wet dough. Formed biscuits are cut into rounds, squares, and wedge shapes. I find that square cuts easiest to make and eat. Either way, biscuits are best when served hot right out of the oven. Oh, and if you are going to serve your biscuits with butter, set a stick on the counter when you start the process so it can come to room temp and it will spread more easily.
    Serve your biscuits nekkid, all by themselves, simply buttered, or with butter and molasses, as is traditional in some parts of the South. Jam and/or marmalade make excellent spreads. Or serve them with turkey and all the fixins, with ham and a glaze or redeye gravy, smothered in sausage sawmill gravy, made into sandwiches, or topped with a sunnyside up egg. Biscuits also make pillowy toppings for fruit cobblers, pot pies, or chili baked in a Dutch oven.
    -----------------

    Now I think if this critic had chosen another recipe he might have had s stronger case. We will be going through these recipes and moving some of the info to below the recipe trying to leave behind only the info a cook needs before cooking. But I think he missed the mark picking on the biscuit recipe.

    Finally, I have been a professional writer for almost 50 years. I work hard at my craft. I try not to write fluff. I know I can be better, but I have sold my work to many highly regarded publications, won a few awards and accolades, and enjoy the support of a lot of good cooks.
    Last edited by Meathead; July 20, 2018, 02:31 PM.

    Comment


    • EdF
      EdF commented
      Editing a comment
      I happen to like the "framing" content around recipes, including links to relevant articles. seriouseats.com does this well, and strike a nice balance, as do the tested recipes here. I guess it's a matter of what you want in a given context: more info, or just a condensed set of instructions. Both have their place.

    • CaptainMike
      CaptainMike commented
      Editing a comment
      I too enjoy yours and others prose when compiling a recipe, especially backstories and relevant history. The wit and wisdom are equally enjoyable and I will re-read some just for fun. I have cut and pasted many recipes from this site (not just yours) and now have a very nice collection. I do look forward to a "printable" version, but will do so patiently.

    • smokenoob
      smokenoob commented
      Editing a comment
      One man's fluff is another man's treasure......

    #17
    I don't think I've read one word of "fluff". I appreciate the stories and history. For me it started with how to cook turkeys. There is sooo much info that I had to copy/paste only what I needed/wanted to try. Once I read every word initially, I got a little frustrated going back to sift through all that info to find again what I needed. So the solution for me was to make my own cliff notes for what I needed/wanted. No biggie!

    Comment


    • Meathead
      Meathead commented
      Editing a comment
      I revised that recipe a couple of weeks ago trying to condense the essence into a recipe card. More work to do.

    • CaptainMike
      CaptainMike commented
      Editing a comment
      That was one of my firsts as well.

    • Polarbear777
      Polarbear777 commented
      Editing a comment
      Yeah, reading the turkey recipie is good, trying to parse it to find something you know you read in there is not. Hoping that one gets the full summary treatment soon.

    #18
    If you just hit Ctrl + p, (pc), the page will open in a print window. Select, (highlight), what you want printed.
    If you look on the left side of the page, you will see "More Settings". Click on that and then click on "selection". Hit print and you are done.

    Comment


      #19
      dcrawford8 Aren't you Snuggle Bunny on Disqus? I think you made your point there. And I think I responded there. Are you trolling me? As explained above, we are working to improve our recipe presentations. We are not a fortune 500 company and it takes time. I would respectfully request that you drop it and sit back and watch us get better.

      Perhaps you have a cooking question you want to discuss? Would you like to discuss how I worked for days on that recipe and how I tried cake flour, all purpose flour, both, butter, lard, shortening, bacon fat, buttermilk, whole milk, yogurt, kneading, not kneading, rolling pins, folding, not folding, chilling not chilling? How I scoured my large cookbook collection and the web and studied many recipes?

      Attached Files

      Comment


      • dcrawford8
        dcrawford8 commented
        Editing a comment
        No, I'm not 'snuggle bunny' ( you could talk to this guy [email protected] and get straightened out if you need to....) But that was the conversation that got me wondering about other opinions. And so I came to what I thought was a forum for open discussion.

        If you have a problem with me or my opinions expressed in an open forum, please refund the renewal I sent you today, and boot me out.

      • Meathead
        Meathead commented
        Editing a comment
        dcrawford8 Glad to know you are not the same guy. And this is an open forum. ANd nobody is getting the boot for disagreeing with me. But please don't call my life's work fluff.

      • gcdmd
        gcdmd commented
        Editing a comment
        lonnie mac Check this out


      #20
      I printed the Entire brisket recipe and read it word for word, again and again. I prefer to read lengthy information on a hard copy. I retain more and can make notes. ​​That was 6+ years ago.

      I find the mention of fluff ridiculous. It ranks right up there with the time someone referred to the website as a blog.

      Comment


      • Huskee
        Huskee commented
        Editing a comment
        With you 100%. Not to downplay someone else's feelings or opinions just cuz they're different than mine, but I agree with you nonetheless

      #21
      There is something that you may not realize: Last year we averaged 3 million pageviews per month on the free site alone. When I write a recipe I have to anticipate reader questions, and some of them are pretty dumb. More than once I have been asked if corned beef will work for the Texas Brisket recipe. So I have to anticipate those questions and answer them in advance. In the biscuit recipe, if I do not explain that I know about other options like other flours or kneading or other fats, I will get questions or challenges from readers. "Hey, you fool Yankee, everyone knows you have to use cake flour." Or "Can I use lard?" So I try to head them off at the headnote.

      Comment


      • CaptainMike
        CaptainMike commented
        Editing a comment
        Don't take personally. I know, easier said than done.

      • Meathead
        Meathead commented
        Editing a comment
        It is hard, when you make your living as a writer, not to take "fluff" as an insult.

      • CaptainMike
        CaptainMike commented
        Editing a comment
        Indeed! As a contra-fluff, let's celebrate something like "Meathead's Fluff of the Day" Mmmmmm fluuuufff...

      #22
      Personally, I love all the content included in your "techniques" Meathead. I read the content for brisket just about every time I cook a brisket. I gain new insights into the process, technique, history, everything else. Long before the Pit existed, I was an avid reader of Amazing Ribs and was sending you money via PayPal because I felt the content was that good.

      If that content went away in order to make AR more like a traditional cookbook, an amazing thing would be lost.

      To me, Amazing Ribs is simply the greatest cookbook in existence and making it more traditional will not make things better.

      Comment


      • CaptainMike
        CaptainMike commented
        Editing a comment
        I think most of us tune in and out in our day to day lives, but our community is pretty strong. Many of us cultivate meaningful relationships outside of personal interaction and AR is no different. I look forward to cementing relationships with my brothers and sisters at a "Meatup" or traveling. Some very much so! Hint.

      • Huskee
        Huskee commented
        Editing a comment
        Same here, i love the stories and editorial. Those that get annoyed with it are the minority I'm quite sure.

      • EdF
        EdF commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm with CaptainMike and ecowper !

      #23
      Wow! I’m still trying to get ahold of the thought that I am funding this whole operation. Heavy!

      Comment


      • ecowper
        ecowper commented
        Editing a comment
        Hold your head high, without you the entire thing would crumble away

      • Meathead
        Meathead commented
        Editing a comment
        I am dedicating my next book to you

      • CaptainMike
        CaptainMike commented
        Editing a comment
        I couldn't think of a better member! Well, now that @JonSolberg left.

      #24
      Never forget the essential truth about recipes. The author can't make them foolproof no matter how hard (s)he tries. And you as the cook won't be able to duplicate the results exactly, if only because of the variations in ingredients. (Seed the many, many brisket threads.)

      Last edited by Mosca; July 20, 2018, 05:07 PM.

      Comment


      • Potkettleblack
        Potkettleblack commented
        Editing a comment
        My water boiling recipe has is fool proof. Everything else needs a bit of technique.

      • Mr. Bones
        Mr. Bones commented
        Editing a comment
        Most eloquently stated, an based upon considerable experience, from a highly credible source! Win-Win!

      • gcdmd
        gcdmd commented
        Editing a comment
        That's excellent. Chef Pepin is very impressive. He had little formal education when he came here but ended up getting a degree from Columbia and lacked only his thesis for a Ph.D.

      #25
      Jacques told me my book was "La Technique" for barbecue.
      Attached Files

      Comment


      • Mosca
        Mosca commented
        Editing a comment
        I love it!!!!!!!

      • gcdmd
        gcdmd commented
        Editing a comment
        Some friends of mine got to know Chef Pepin and his wife on a cruise and found them to be very open, gracious, and down to earth folks.

      • Potkettleblack
        Potkettleblack commented
        Editing a comment
        The website is Larousse Gastronomique of BBQ.

      #26
      Hey Meathead - before I retired, we would occasionally have a small party and people would bring food. I brought a rice and sausage dish one time and one lady absolutely loved it.. She asked for the recipe and I gave it to her. I told her what kind of sausage to use and that it wouldn't taste the same if she used anything else. Of course, she used a different type of sausage and it was my fault it didn't turn out the same.

      So I know that publishing recipes that are seen by many thousands must be a royal pain. Ya have my sympathy...

      Comment


      • Meathead
        Meathead commented
        Editing a comment
        LOL! I occasionally hear that but fortunately not too often.

      #27
      Meathead
      Ya know... most people have ZERO clue what goes into writing a recipe. Then there's standardizing.. to which "generally accepted" standardized format? I think there are 4.

      I am not saying people are are dumb or unintelligent. Not at all.

      There is a tremendous amount of work that goes into devoloping a recipe and a format before you even think about writing a recipe, that is just not in the wheelhouse of most folk.

      Meathead had me at "Boiling ribs and Terrorist." Now I don't always agree with MH, the Pit, recipes, ingredients, amounts and techniques but if you simply want to be a recipe follower there is always Pinterest. Best part is it's free.

      I too LOVE the print recipe button. I have a tremendous amount of cooking experience and always read the text at least once. I would never think I can nail a brisket like Jerod Broussard (pre pooper) or shortiess like Spinaker or even ribs like Huskee (that was good right) but understand the merit of a print button, especially multiple times to the recipe.

      There are some things that just can't be taught.

      My General spirit is "Whatever makes your boat float." Either way I am good. If it's what you desire I hope you get your refund.

      To me this is such a great place I'll send it to you if they don't.

      Comment


        #28
        First time or two through, I follow line by line. Next few times, it’s "I remember this, that’s enough of that..." After that, it’s "Let’s see what I have in the fridge and the pantry that’s close..."

        Comment


        • EdF
          EdF commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm the same way. I do a new recipe as written, to understand the intent, then improvise.

        • Meathead
          Meathead commented
          Editing a comment
          This is exactly the way it should be done. First time follow the instructions. After that, it's time to riff.

        • gcdmd
          gcdmd commented
          Editing a comment
          Keeping a culinary journal has been a help to me, especially if my ADD or Alzheimer's kicks in when I go to prepare the product again.

        #29
        WOW. This thread rustled some feathers.
        But with a site this large and growing these things are going to happen.
        I would have to agree with what ecowper and CaptainMike have said. Also HouseHomey has some very good words spoken here.

        Meathead I understand your need to defend yourself. But you have a much bigger picture to oversee here. Put it behind you, move on and let your moderators handle this.
        And please know that most of us support you 100%.

        Comment


        • Meathead
          Meathead commented
          Editing a comment
          We get a lot of constructive criticism and take action on most of it. Just not happy with my work being called fluff. To a writer that is a pretty strong insult.

        • Steve B
          Steve B commented
          Editing a comment
          Meathead I totally agree and understand your point. I think you know that pretty much ALL of us here have the utmost respect for you.

        #30
        How ironic. I completed the survey before this thread and one of the comments I made was how I love the fact there is no BS social media crappiness. This little dust up is obviously not a huge deal, but definitely the most uncomfortable thread I've read in my time here.

        Comment


        • gcdmd
          gcdmd commented
          Editing a comment
          There have been a very few along the way during the time I've been here. Usually, the problem is due to a misunderstanding, and the dust settles rather quickly. The mods do a great job at keeping things from getting too out of hand.

        • HouseHomey
          HouseHomey commented
          Editing a comment
          Then i would say we are doing well. We ran out of OJ at work today and I promise you. HEADS WERE ROLLING.

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