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  • klflowers
    Club Member
    • Sep 2015
    • 2068
    • Tennessee

    #76
    I haven't read this entire thread, but what I have read makes me wonder how I made it to 61. I go to the store, look at the products, buy what looks good, take it home, come to AR and get some ideas about fixing it, cook it then eat it. I don't buy stuff labeled organic cause it costs too much. I do (or did) frequent farmers markets, until I read ComfortablyNumb's treatise on farmer market practices. I do frequent a local "farmers" market called Linda's for most of my produce. They have excellent collard greens. I am not going to even ask how they grow them.

    Comment

    • rickgregory
      Charter Member
      • Aug 2014
      • 66

      #77
      Originally posted by Meathead View Post
      "Natural" is shooting an animal, and eating it. What is natural about taking an animal shot in the wild, carving it up, salting it, adding spices, and subjecting it to fire? Fire/heat completely alters the chemistry. It is a PROCESS. You are processing the food. The issue at hand is how much processing you are comfortable with? How about marinating? Adding nitrite? Smoking? Preservatives that kill pathogens? Which of these processes crosses YOUR line?

      Natural is picking a grape and eating it. Squashing it, adding SO2, pouring it into a refrigerated tank, adding yeast, pouring it into a wooden barrel, aging it, bottling it. Is wine a natural product as all the books say?

      Honestly, this kind of specious post feels like trolling and were it not you, I'd accuse the post of being that. You know very well that no one is talking about cooking meat when the discussion is about processed food and it undercuts your argument to pretend that you don't know the difference.

      For the most part I think when people are talking against highly processed food they mean things like TV dinners etc which are often filled with salt, various chemicals to make them do well as frozen meals, etc.

      Comment


      • ComfortablyNumb
        ComfortablyNumb commented
        Editing a comment
        I see your point, however it isn't about processed food, it's about the word 'natural' used in marketing. It's a meaningless word that is abused. To wit, a TV dinner could be labeled 'Prepared naturally with natural ingredients, and naturally frozen' and it's perfectly legal.

      • rickgregory
        rickgregory commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm not commenting on the use of the word natural as it has no legal meaning and no real other meaning here. My comment is about the obfuscation and silly posturing MH is doing with regard to what we mean by 'processed food'.
    • Meathead
      BBQ Whisperer, Mythbuster
      • May 2014
      • 1132
      • Chicago area
      • Remember, no rules in the bedroom or kitchen
        Meathead

      #78
      rickgregory The initial post in this thread is a draft from a chapter in my book in progress. In it I attempt to clarify and debunk a lot of misinformation about label terms such as organic and natural. I also make the point that under legal definition, and logic, almost all food is processed. Cooking is processing. Chopping is processing. Freezing is processing. Salting is processing. So the term "precessed" is meaningless. The issue is WHAT process and HOW MUCH processing. "Various chemicals" (your term) is too vague.

      Name the harmful additive you don't like. How about that sinister chemical NaCl (salt). How is salting ribs different from injected ribs with salt water? Are you saying it is bad? How about smoke? Spices are additives. Carrageen? It’s a gelatin used as a thickener made by boiling a moss. Been done that way since 600 BCE. Does potassium hydrogen tartrate sound intimidating? Also known as cream of tartar, it is pretty much a powder made from those crystals you sometimes find in wine, a common byproduct of grape juice. You can’t make a decent snickerdoodle without it. Does ascorbic acid on a label make you hesitate? Well it is just another name for vitamin C. Tocopherol? What’s vitamin E. Xanthan gum? That’s a stabilizer and thickener produced by fermenting plant-derived sugars so harmless it is allowed in organic foods. And natural flavors encompasses a wide range of compounds. Ask yourself this: Do you avoid food additives but take vitamins? Medicines?

      The point is that the term "processed" is a meaningless dog whistle.

      Comment


      • Meathead
        Meathead commented
        Editing a comment
        Willy that is what I wanted to say. Xanthan gum may sound scary, but it has never been shown to be harmful and it is allowed in organic food.

      • Willy
        Willy commented
        Editing a comment
        Meathead : "...so harmless it is allowed in organic food" makes it sound like "conventional" practice recognizes that some things are harmful, yet they're allowed to be used anyway.

      • Meathead
        Meathead commented
        Editing a comment
        Willy I think I understand you now. I chose the word because many people argue that hard to pronounce names in food are harmful.
    • rickgregory
      Charter Member
      • Aug 2014
      • 66

      #79
      Originally posted by Meathead View Post
      rickgregory The initial post in this thread is a draft from a chapter in my book in progress. In it I attempt to clarify and debunk a lot of misinformation about label terms such as organic and natural. I also make the point that under legal definition, and logic, almost all food is processed. Cooking is processing. Chopping is processing. Freezing is processing. Salting is processing. So the term "precessed" is meaningless. The issue is WHAT process and HOW MUCH processing. "Various chemicals" (your term) is too vague.

      Name the harmful additive you don't like. How about that sinister chemical NaCl (salt). How is salting ribs different from injected ribs with salt water? Are you saying it is bad? How about smoke? Spices are additives. Carrageen? It’s a gelatin used as a thickener made by boiling a moss. Been done that way since 600 BCE. Does potassium hydrogen tartrate sound intimidating? Also known as cream of tartar, it is pretty much a powder made from those crystals you sometimes find in wine, a common byproduct of grape juice. You can’t make a decent snickerdoodle without it. Does ascorbic acid on a label make you hesitate? Well it is just another name for vitamin C. Tocopherol? What’s vitamin E. Xanthan gum? That’s a stabilizer and thickener produced by fermenting plant-derived sugars so harmless it is allowed in organic foods. And natural flavors encompasses a wide range of compounds. Ask yourself this: Do you avoid food additives but take vitamins? Medicines?

      The point is that the term "processed" is a meaningless dog whistle.
      If you don't really understand what nutritionists and others mean when they talk about processed food then you should do a hell of a lot more research.

      No one is arguing that there's a bright line between processed and non-processed food (which is basically raw food). Of COURSE it's a continuum. But there's a VAST difference between minimally processed food cooked from scratch and highly processed industrial food that's turned out on factory lines. Again... research would help here.
      Last edited by rickgregory; August 11th, 2019, 10:49 PM.

      Comment


      • Jerod Broussard
        Jerod Broussard commented
        Editing a comment
        What about basically raw food (non-processed) turned out on factory lines?

      • Meathead
        Meathead commented
        Editing a comment
        Jerod Broussard I think raw chicken is a natural unprocessed food. Let's encourage people to eat more of it!
    • ComfortablyNumb
      Club Member
      • May 2017
      • 2562
      • Northeast Washington
      • KBQ C-60
        PK360
        Thermoworks Smoke
        Thermoworks Thermopop
        Thermoworks Dot

      #80
      rickgregory

      Help me out here, I found this in the frozen food isle at the supermarket today. Is this "highly processed industrial food turned out on a factory line"?

      Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1672.JPG
Views:	13
Size:	3.10 MB
ID:	729068

      Comment


      • Red Man
        Red Man commented
        Editing a comment
        Clearly not processed...it’s organic and non gmo 🤣.
    • Meathead
      BBQ Whisperer, Mythbuster
      • May 2014
      • 1132
      • Chicago area
      • Remember, no rules in the bedroom or kitchen
        Meathead

      #81
      rickgregory Oy. You say "If you don't really understand what nutritionists and others mean when they talk about processed food then you should do a hell of a lot more research."

      Ask a nutritionist or anyone to give you a definition of processed food that makes sense. In fact here is one on NBC News https://www.nbcnews.com/better/lifes...it-ncna1038921

      She says in the first paragraph "Much of the food we eat today has been processed in some fashion. Technically speaking, the bag of pre-washed spinach greens that has permanent residency in my fridge is a processed food. Making life in the kitchen less stressful — not to mention healthy eating much easier — is the gift of modern food processing, but the system isn’t made up entirely of bagged lettuce and frozen fruit (another form of processing). Let’s take a closer look at processed food and how it might be harmful to your health." Please read on. She and I are in agreement.

      This is not something that needs science. It is a matter of symantics. Consumers need to know what processing is helpful and what is harmful. Saying all processing is bad is wrong.


      Comment

      • Meathead
        BBQ Whisperer, Mythbuster
        • May 2014
        • 1132
        • Chicago area
        • Remember, no rules in the bedroom or kitchen
          Meathead

        #82
        ComfortablyNumb GREAT Example! Question for all: Is this a processed food?

        Here is the ingredient list from that ravioli. Organic Pasta (Organic Wheat Flour, Water, Organic Semolina Flour, Organic Wheat Gluten), Organic Tomato Puree, Ricotta Cheese, Filtered Water, Organic Onions, Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Spices, Organic Grade AA Butter, Parmesan Cheese, Sea Salt, Organic Garlic, Honey.

        Sounds pretty natural and unprocessed, right?

        Pasta is made by harvesting wheat, drying it, grinding it, bleaching it. Tomato puree is made by harvesting tomatoes, blanching them to remove the skins, simmering them to concentrate it. Ricotta is made from whey from whole milk usually after other cheeses are made, then an acidulator is added and it is boiled. Onions are harvested, peeled, chopped or pureed. EVOO is made by harvesting olives and smashing and pressing them and usually filtering the oil. Butter is made by aggressively churning cream which is separated from milk mechanically. Parm is made from skim milk usually made by spinning it in a centrifuge to remove the fat, then rennet, removed from the stomach of calves slaughtered for veal, is added, then the curds and whey are separated, it is placed in a mold, pressed, and aged in a temp controlled room at least 2 years. Sea salt is an undefined term. All salt is from the sea. If it is made by evaporation it can contain undefined minerals and even fish poop. Garlic, same as onions. Honey, harvested from man made hives by smoking the bees to stun them then removing their honeycombs and centrifuging them to remove the honey. The wole thing is then assembled cooked and frozen in a big factory.

        So, is this a processed food? And if it is, is there anything wrong with that?

        Comment

        • ComfortablyNumb
          Club Member
          • May 2017
          • 2562
          • Northeast Washington
          • KBQ C-60
            PK360
            Thermoworks Smoke
            Thermoworks Thermopop
            Thermoworks Dot

          #83
          And here it comes. Linked in the article Meathead posted is this. I can see that someday we'll have more labeling with the brightly coloured box with a number in it. Dr. Oz will be telling us which ones not to eat while Big Food lobbies for definition revisions.

          Comment


          • Meathead
            Meathead commented
            Editing a comment
            THANKS!!!! I missed this!
        • jbones
          Club Member
          • Aug 2017
          • 28
          • Red Wing, MN
          • Who says smoking is bad for you?

          #84
          My. 02 is this - I like this section of your book. Regardless of the semantics of "processed" the following probably holds true:

          If I had a nickel for every debunked manufactured crisis that would result in me dying, the Earth freezing over, the Earth boiling over or cows methane triggering the apocalypse, I'd be able to buy out Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk.

          If Hollywood would just fall into the ocean we'd all be better off. Remember in Beverly Hills Cop how Billy was reading that the average American dies with 5 pounds of undigested red meat in their bowels? THAT BS became a mantra that suddenly had all of Hollywood and the media ranting on how bad red meat is for you.

          I have my own unscientific study but I believe it is 100% true. The results show that life is the biggest cause of death. The former always ends in the latter.

          Now, it's time to resume my Captain Crunch bender.

          Comment


          • ComfortablyNumb
            ComfortablyNumb commented
            Editing a comment
            Wait a minute, I see dying with five pounds of undigested meat in my bowels a good thing, because I would have ate lots of meat just before I died, and if you are going to go, might as well go with a full, happy belly.

            BTW, I just supported your local economy, my new boots get delivered Monday.
        • mountainsmoker
          Club Member
          • Jun 2019
          • 1403
          • Bryson City, NC

          #85
          I believe more people die of accidents, smoking(which took me a long time to give up, you do it if you want, no judgement from me,) drunk driving(2 tickets in my20's), there own foolishment, drugs and other things than from processed foods and GMO'

          When owned and ran Nursery the NC State Agricultural Experimental Station was 60 miles away in Fletcher, NC and I often visited it when I owned and ran my Nursery. They were always glad to show me around there labs and fields. It was always interesting. It normally took 8-10 years from idea to market for a seed. That included crossing parents, and maybe again, testing for taste and flavor, pest and disease resistance, quality and size of fruit, marketability and other qualities. Even longer for the native shrubs and trees I was growing. They often had plots of over 100 different tomatoes and the same of other vegetables. It was manned by a staff of several PhD's and there students and a full staff of works knowledgeable in what they were doing.

          Are these processed foods heck yes it just takes time to get to market.





























          Comment


          • Meathead
            Meathead commented
            Editing a comment
            I agree. The riskiest thing we do is get behind the wheel.

          • ComfortablyNumb
            ComfortablyNumb commented
            Editing a comment
            Meathead The riskiest thing we do is come out of the womb.
        • Meathead
          BBQ Whisperer, Mythbuster
          • May 2014
          • 1132
          • Chicago area
          • Remember, no rules in the bedroom or kitchen
            Meathead

          #86
          Just wondering, what is the most processed food of all? Could it be the latest darlings of the health conscious vegetarians, Impossible Beef or Beyond Beef?

          Comment


          • mountainsmoker
            mountainsmoker commented
            Editing a comment
            I have to laugh vegetarians don't want there food to look or taste like meat. Oh well, I read in an article that more meat eaters were eating them than vegetarians.

          • Huskee
            Huskee commented
            Editing a comment
            mountainsmoker I'm a bit ignorant of them and their target audience, but like you say I too think the purpose is mainly for meat eaters who want to cut back w/o feeling like they're cutting back. Sounds like they're too realistic for those who simply don't like meat.

          • Polarbear777
            Polarbear777 commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah but talk about a marketing dream. No wonder the big wigs are investing big bucks, they expect to make even bigger bucks. They know people will eat this up.

            I’ve tried impossible. The taste is very close to very lean beef. They still don’t seem to have the texture/fat or something exactly right.
        • mountainsmoker
          Club Member
          • Jun 2019
          • 1403
          • Bryson City, NC

          #87
          What does a vegetarian eat anyway. Can anyone tell me? Never mind I found it online I can survive with eggs and dairy.LOL

          Comment

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